A fellow boating buddy has a rig to remove and install motors and offers to help me out. So, I tow the boat to his place with the new motor in the back of my SUV.
We unhook all the accessories on the motor and we're ready to pull it out of the boat. We pull the engine out and instead of the engine coming off the mounts... the mounts come off with the motor! Initially, we had to double check to make sure we unbolted the motor, and we had.
The reason this happened as it turns out was that the wood blocks under the fiberglass which mounts bolt to had rotted over time and basically deteriorated. So the weight of the engine was the only thing holding down the motor! This is not something you could have easily observed with the motor installed but very evident with the motor removed and you could see the rust on the motor mount bolts as well!
The effectively stopped the engine swap and with my wife 5 months pregnant we missed Memorial Weekend which was our planned big debut of the "new" boat.
The project boat in question...
Thursday, May 28, 2009
The "New" Motor
To recap the last post we bought a used boat that we thought was turn key. Upon closer inspection weeks down the line we found multiple cracks in the block, heads, and intake manifold and decided to replace the engine.
At this time, we felt like for only about $1,500 we could drop in a motor and only have about $7,500 invested in the boat which was still about $4,500 below what the next comparable boat we found cost.
For the motor, I turned to a local engine re-manufacturer. Even tho I read online at the Sea Ray Owner's Forum that these old Sea Rays (ours is a '79 SRV260) were underpowered with a 350 I decided to go with the same sized motor again. The main reason(s) were that I knew that engine would fit, I had some parts I could save off the old motor, and I knew the outdrive was up to the challenge.
Tip: When you change the type of engine in your boat (IE going from a 350 to 454) you have to re-gear the outdrive are geared for the torque curve of the engine its coupled to. This can cost around $1,000 to have someone do this for you. Additionally, too much additional HP (an Alpha can only handle about 300hp) and you need to move to a Bravo outdrive ... which is even more money!
I should mention here too that there are differences between automotive and marine engines which I will talk about briefly as there are safety considerations. (And before someone leaves a comment flaming me for being an idiot and how I'm going to blow myself up.)
As far as I've ever been able to find out there are no differences between a marine and automotive block, heads, pistons, or intake. You will find people who sell them and mark them up accordingly but I found at many stores (in person and online) the marine part numbers list automotive equivalent numbers as well. The biggest difference it seems is that the marine engines get an enamel coating to help resist rust which you can do on your own for cheap with a few rattle cans.
The only thing I did have to specify was that I wanted was a different cam shaft. A boat needs more torque at lower rpms to overcome the friction of the water to help get on plane, etc. This is also one of the many areas where the RV and Marine world seem to mesh together (the other big one is plumbing related stuff). They installed what is called an RV Cam which is a high torque / low RPM cam profile. As you might imagine, an RV is big and heavy and likewise needs a similar profile to what a boat needs to get moving. After crawling a bunch of sites I found that many off-road and truck owners also use this type cam to get the torque they need.
The oil pump I bought was a regular automotive pump and I used a pickup with a steel sleeve instead of a plastic one for durability. I could have used a high performance oil pump but I read some of them pull oil too quickly and the pan can dry up waiting for the oil to make its way back into the pan.
With the long block out of the way the accessories are really where boats and cars differ. By law, Marine products must be spark proof. The reason for this is that most engines are in an enclosed area where gas fumes can be trapped and a spark could be a very bad thing.
I should also mention there are marine gaskets as well. Some are cork and others don't seem to be any different than the automotive equivalent; I had the set that came with the long block and a marine set I bought to compare. I've noticed that racing gaskets seem to be very similar to marine gaskets probably because both have harsh conditions to contend with.
Some Marine grade items I bought or had rebuilt off the old motor: starter and solenoid, water pump*, fuel pump, Quadrajet carb**, and alternator. I also bought a 160 degree thermostat. Most cars have a 210 degree but for some reason the marine engines get a lower temp one.
* I can't recall if there is a marine vs. auto water pump but I found a marine one for a reasonable price (under $100) and decided to go that route.
** A marine carb features a J tubes to prevent fuel from spilling into the bilge area.
Tip: You can use ARP bolts which will not rust on your marine engine but their torque values will be different from the normal bolts.
A final thought about marine vs. automotive is that even the exhaust manifold gaskets were the same between the gasket kit despite the exhaust on boats and cars being somewhat different!
So with all the parts purchased it was just a matter of swapping the engine... or was it?
At this time, we felt like for only about $1,500 we could drop in a motor and only have about $7,500 invested in the boat which was still about $4,500 below what the next comparable boat we found cost.
For the motor, I turned to a local engine re-manufacturer. Even tho I read online at the Sea Ray Owner's Forum that these old Sea Rays (ours is a '79 SRV260) were underpowered with a 350 I decided to go with the same sized motor again. The main reason(s) were that I knew that engine would fit, I had some parts I could save off the old motor, and I knew the outdrive was up to the challenge.
Tip: When you change the type of engine in your boat (IE going from a 350 to 454) you have to re-gear the outdrive are geared for the torque curve of the engine its coupled to. This can cost around $1,000 to have someone do this for you. Additionally, too much additional HP (an Alpha can only handle about 300hp) and you need to move to a Bravo outdrive ... which is even more money!
I should mention here too that there are differences between automotive and marine engines which I will talk about briefly as there are safety considerations. (And before someone leaves a comment flaming me for being an idiot and how I'm going to blow myself up.)
As far as I've ever been able to find out there are no differences between a marine and automotive block, heads, pistons, or intake. You will find people who sell them and mark them up accordingly but I found at many stores (in person and online) the marine part numbers list automotive equivalent numbers as well. The biggest difference it seems is that the marine engines get an enamel coating to help resist rust which you can do on your own for cheap with a few rattle cans.
The only thing I did have to specify was that I wanted was a different cam shaft. A boat needs more torque at lower rpms to overcome the friction of the water to help get on plane, etc. This is also one of the many areas where the RV and Marine world seem to mesh together (the other big one is plumbing related stuff). They installed what is called an RV Cam which is a high torque / low RPM cam profile. As you might imagine, an RV is big and heavy and likewise needs a similar profile to what a boat needs to get moving. After crawling a bunch of sites I found that many off-road and truck owners also use this type cam to get the torque they need.
The oil pump I bought was a regular automotive pump and I used a pickup with a steel sleeve instead of a plastic one for durability. I could have used a high performance oil pump but I read some of them pull oil too quickly and the pan can dry up waiting for the oil to make its way back into the pan.
With the long block out of the way the accessories are really where boats and cars differ. By law, Marine products must be spark proof. The reason for this is that most engines are in an enclosed area where gas fumes can be trapped and a spark could be a very bad thing.
I should also mention there are marine gaskets as well. Some are cork and others don't seem to be any different than the automotive equivalent; I had the set that came with the long block and a marine set I bought to compare. I've noticed that racing gaskets seem to be very similar to marine gaskets probably because both have harsh conditions to contend with.
Some Marine grade items I bought or had rebuilt off the old motor: starter and solenoid, water pump*, fuel pump, Quadrajet carb**, and alternator. I also bought a 160 degree thermostat. Most cars have a 210 degree but for some reason the marine engines get a lower temp one.
* I can't recall if there is a marine vs. auto water pump but I found a marine one for a reasonable price (under $100) and decided to go that route.
** A marine carb features a J tubes to prevent fuel from spilling into the bilge area.
Tip: You can use ARP bolts which will not rust on your marine engine but their torque values will be different from the normal bolts.
A final thought about marine vs. automotive is that even the exhaust manifold gaskets were the same between the gasket kit despite the exhaust on boats and cars being somewhat different!
So with all the parts purchased it was just a matter of swapping the engine... or was it?
Friday, May 1, 2009
Introduction
Hi and welcome to my Sea Ray Restoration blog!
I started this blog to help fellow boaters who might be thinking about taking on a restoration project and what it entails or what to look for to avoid a restoration project. Drop me a line if you find this blog informational or have additional questions or comments.
Note that I've back dated these blog entries according to the rough timeline that some of these events took place but I'm actually writing this blog in November of 2010.
How this whole mess started...
I've been a boater all my life having grown up with friends and family who had boats. In the summer of 2006 I became a first time boat owner with the purchase of a brand new 19' ski boat. As often happens to many die hard boaters I got the itch to get a bigger boat. At the time, my wife and I had a baby on the way and decided that a cabin cruiser would fit our boating lifestyle better.
Inspired by some of our friends who had good luck with older model boats and not wanting to spend $125,000 on a new cabin cruiser we decided to start looking at older boats. We didn't really have a price range in mind but it seemed like around $10,000 - $15,000 you could have your pick of old sub 30' boats in working condition.
I won't bore you with the all the details but we spent a lot of time looking online and driving around to the local lakes to look at boats. We live in Dallas, TX and our search at one point took us to Lake Texoma. There, we found a 268 Sea Ray Sundancer. We loved the layout but this particular boat had engine problems that we didn't know about until we arrived and the sales person told us. It also needed a trailer (we wanted a trailer-able cabin cruiser) and the fore window leaked (it was raining that day) and we were concerned about what type of damage that was doing to the boat.
All along, I had seen a "1979 Sea Ray Sundancer 27'" listed on Craig's List for about $5,500 which looked pretty nice from the pictures. Long story short my wife and I looked at the boat and decided we liked it. Upon initial inspection everything looked to be in working order (trim tabs worked, lights worked, etc) and the owner readily admitted the stereo and a few other things were problematic. The day I went to pickup the boat the owner's son was there and hooked the outdrive up to the hose and started the engine. The boat ran for several minutes and seemed to be in good working order. I paid the owner his asking price and I took the boat home thinking I'd gotten a very good deal (about 50% less than comparable boats were going for).
But as they say, the devil is in the details. We started doing some cosmetic repairs like applying a liquid seal to the front window hatch to keep it from leaking, re-oiled the teak, etc. My wife even went as far as making new covers for all the cushions inside the boat. The old ones were fine but not very fashionable. I ordered a portable a/c unit and generator to help keep the cabin cool, and it seemed like we were on our way.
A few weeks into owning the boat I decided to fire up the motor since it had been sitting. It ran for about 10 minutes and then I noticed water dripping from the rear drain. I opened the hatch to find that water was leaking out of the side of one of the cylinder heads. Later that week I went to the local remanufactured engine place and bought 2 new cylinder heads as I noticed the leak was from the side of one of the the heads, not the gasket. I tore down the top of the motor to find the intake was cracked, the block was cracked, and the cylinder heads were cracked. I found out nearly a year later that some mechanics find it acceptable for an engine to have a cracks so long as water is not leaking into the cylinders or mixing into the oil. But at this time I felt, and still feel that the right course of action was to replace the motor.
I started this blog to help fellow boaters who might be thinking about taking on a restoration project and what it entails or what to look for to avoid a restoration project. Drop me a line if you find this blog informational or have additional questions or comments.
Note that I've back dated these blog entries according to the rough timeline that some of these events took place but I'm actually writing this blog in November of 2010.
How this whole mess started...
I've been a boater all my life having grown up with friends and family who had boats. In the summer of 2006 I became a first time boat owner with the purchase of a brand new 19' ski boat. As often happens to many die hard boaters I got the itch to get a bigger boat. At the time, my wife and I had a baby on the way and decided that a cabin cruiser would fit our boating lifestyle better.
Inspired by some of our friends who had good luck with older model boats and not wanting to spend $125,000 on a new cabin cruiser we decided to start looking at older boats. We didn't really have a price range in mind but it seemed like around $10,000 - $15,000 you could have your pick of old sub 30' boats in working condition.
I won't bore you with the all the details but we spent a lot of time looking online and driving around to the local lakes to look at boats. We live in Dallas, TX and our search at one point took us to Lake Texoma. There, we found a 268 Sea Ray Sundancer. We loved the layout but this particular boat had engine problems that we didn't know about until we arrived and the sales person told us. It also needed a trailer (we wanted a trailer-able cabin cruiser) and the fore window leaked (it was raining that day) and we were concerned about what type of damage that was doing to the boat.
All along, I had seen a "1979 Sea Ray Sundancer 27'" listed on Craig's List for about $5,500 which looked pretty nice from the pictures. Long story short my wife and I looked at the boat and decided we liked it. Upon initial inspection everything looked to be in working order (trim tabs worked, lights worked, etc) and the owner readily admitted the stereo and a few other things were problematic. The day I went to pickup the boat the owner's son was there and hooked the outdrive up to the hose and started the engine. The boat ran for several minutes and seemed to be in good working order. I paid the owner his asking price and I took the boat home thinking I'd gotten a very good deal (about 50% less than comparable boats were going for).
But as they say, the devil is in the details. We started doing some cosmetic repairs like applying a liquid seal to the front window hatch to keep it from leaking, re-oiled the teak, etc. My wife even went as far as making new covers for all the cushions inside the boat. The old ones were fine but not very fashionable. I ordered a portable a/c unit and generator to help keep the cabin cool, and it seemed like we were on our way.
A few weeks into owning the boat I decided to fire up the motor since it had been sitting. It ran for about 10 minutes and then I noticed water dripping from the rear drain. I opened the hatch to find that water was leaking out of the side of one of the cylinder heads. Later that week I went to the local remanufactured engine place and bought 2 new cylinder heads as I noticed the leak was from the side of one of the the heads, not the gasket. I tore down the top of the motor to find the intake was cracked, the block was cracked, and the cylinder heads were cracked. I found out nearly a year later that some mechanics find it acceptable for an engine to have a cracks so long as water is not leaking into the cylinders or mixing into the oil. But at this time I felt, and still feel that the right course of action was to replace the motor.
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